I used to read Layton long ago when Cohen was a big admirer of his work. It's easy to see why, with a style that will either inspire or repel you. But no one could ever accuse Layton of sitting on a fence being inoffensive and neutral in his poems!
I don't want want a violent poet lecturing me that I'm not memorable enough for him. Nor do I want him to have any sort of violent effect on my imagination. He can dismember any phallus he wants with his words and stick it in the mouth of a poor bystander if he's so enraged, but I'll give him a wide berth. (I'd hope a witness might dial the police.... )
Strong emotions and that's fine. I appreciate he doesn't want saccharine emotions, hearts and flowers people. Nor do I.
But I'd quite like to be touched, moved, made to think by his words - rather than horrified and repelled.
He'd likely respond with what he once said in an interview:
“I think it’s important to make people understand the dark places of the human heart and the human soul. I consider that the prime job of the poet/prophet. To make people aware of the darkness, the abysses of evil that lurk in every single one us.”
And to be fair, you are following a page called "Poetic Outlaws."
This is true...and I am no sissy or easily offended. My language has been described as 'colourful' on occasions. I appreciate his sentiments, but not his imagery/words.
I suspect most of us relate to some poems more than others. Some writers work for us, some don't. Some works resonate, some don't.
It makes me think on«Eyes Of The Devil» from Patryk Vega, he may have been aware of these practices.
As far as I am concerned, if he wanted to inform, denounce through this poem, I do not think it is a success, but it was his way of expressing himself on the subject. It remains to be seen if this poem has marked the minds, I think not, overall (population), I would have worked on the subject, so that it shakes the mass, instead of throwing the words brutally. While we are totally free to express ourselves, it should not be forgotten that common sense and a chosen construction can be more effective if we want to get the message across. It is not the substance but the form that leaves something to be desired.
For some reason the whole conversation made me think of the well known idea that an army of sheep guided by a strong leader can be more effective than an army of wolves guided by a sheep. Maybe it’s not necessary that all followers of this page to be wolves, only the leader… 😉
It’s a shtick. Anyone who can write a grammatically correct sentence could pull it off. Poets rant and lecture us all the time. Nothing new here. Layton’s imagery is pure banality. He’s got nothing to say. It’s like a horror film by Dario Argento dripping with cheap imagery to mask the bloated egoism. Look at me, mommy!!! Grrrr!!!! I’m a tiger that mauls kittens!!!! Aren’t I special? Say it, mommy! SAY IT!! 😝
There is a time for every type of poem under the sun. If you want to propogate hell, you can also read daily the headlines of any newspaper. This poem sounds to me as if he hasn't 'been there' himself (though who am I to know). But is that a problem? The content is valid, though it has been voiced before. For example:
Emily Dickinson: "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire can ever warm me, I know THAT is poetry. If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know THAT is poetry";
or
Franz Kafka: "One should only read books that bite and sting one. If the book we are reading does not wake us iup with a blow to the head, what's the point in reading? A book must be an axe which smashes the frozen sea within us".
I have written many anti-war poems though I have never been in a war myself - though both my parents in WW2, and a grandfather in WW1, had -- and their war-trauma got passed on to me -- including nightmares. Does that invalidate my anti-war poetry? (Happy to receive answers)
Indeed, this does not invalidate it, as long as we have a certain understanding of the subject. What matters, in my opinion, is a different, original approach...to address the problem, the message, the feeling etc., since the author writes to be read, even if sometimes it may happen that initially it was not intended to be published.
Most of my poetry is my way of 'journaling', and never gets published, and probably nor should it be - it's just my mode of processing - and sometimes my frustration with life - it's 'emotional throwing up'. But sometimes I think 'hey, that's confessional poetry' and then it's o.k to publish it :)
I think it’s a natural and harmonious way to do things. I suppose that is how the soul of a true poet works, without forcing yourself to write for others first, then of course we can work longer to make it more beautiful, more explicit or not...
Indeed, it is good to externalize frustrations etc., this minimizes the impacts on the body and mind, I think.
As far as I am concerned, I have, a good time ago, from a mental point of view completely all abandoned, I herited an immense freedom.
It is true, some things can, over time, be shared, they are gifts offered to the living, and can allow to reflect, to elevate souls, to soften life etc.
With respect, and because I look forward to reading each day's post (even Cioran, that humorless nihilist. Give me Beckett!), this poet's intention, to make us aware of the darkness, and so forth-- I mean what has he seen? Did he suffer the gulag, as Solzhenitsyn did? Did he wander across a scarred and grotesque battlefield, as Kosinski did? How about the shit that Celine saw? I don't know what he's seen. I know nothing about him, but he sounds, in this poem, anyway, like someone who believes he's been to the very edge, man, and is reporting back. There are so many writers who present this way. Take from each what you may, and leave the rest. Or don't bother at all.
Wow. You wouldn't want to put that guy Layton in charge of something, or give him a gun. Maybe just give him a pedestal in the town square so he could yell at the people passing by.
As a Canadian, we were raised on Irving Layton who was Cohen’s mentor in his early days in Montreal. A wonderful writer. In his spirit, I do agree. I want to be ripped open by something that I read. Knocked on my ass. By the sounds. By the metaphors. Poetry is what poetry brings. I want it to bring the fire. Poetry is what poetry does. I want to make me bleed. I want to take that blood and turn it into Ink!
Sometimes I think that poetry might actually do the impossible and if read, it could shake the world and throw a punch in its guts, but then I realise that society's ignorance is too thick (We are trapped in our habits and limited view of reality way too much. We don’t change easy) and hence, poetry is nothing more than a “masturbation” of the mind, as some would say…
he was writing in a time before this time and yet, wow, how applicable it is right now.
history repeats itself. poetry is here to remind us of the human condition, the raw and ugly and menacing parts of it, along with all the love and other good stuff. thank you, layton and erik.
The ultimate goal of a poem like this seems to me to make better people of us. We have no use for sentimentality and other fake feelings. We need to face the reality of the abyss in ourselves and in others. Agreed! However, are we better off incorporating horror images into poems? We can see those images passing by daily on our screens and in the daily newspapers. Has that ever improved anything about the situation?
I used to read Layton long ago when Cohen was a big admirer of his work. It's easy to see why, with a style that will either inspire or repel you. But no one could ever accuse Layton of sitting on a fence being inoffensive and neutral in his poems!
"Give me words fierce and jagged enough
to tear your skin like shrapnel"
Hmm..
Nah.
I don't want want a violent poet lecturing me that I'm not memorable enough for him. Nor do I want him to have any sort of violent effect on my imagination. He can dismember any phallus he wants with his words and stick it in the mouth of a poor bystander if he's so enraged, but I'll give him a wide berth. (I'd hope a witness might dial the police.... )
Strong emotions and that's fine. I appreciate he doesn't want saccharine emotions, hearts and flowers people. Nor do I.
But I'd quite like to be touched, moved, made to think by his words - rather than horrified and repelled.
To each their own, as always.
He'd likely respond with what he once said in an interview:
“I think it’s important to make people understand the dark places of the human heart and the human soul. I consider that the prime job of the poet/prophet. To make people aware of the darkness, the abysses of evil that lurk in every single one us.”
And to be fair, you are following a page called "Poetic Outlaws."
This is true...and I am no sissy or easily offended. My language has been described as 'colourful' on occasions. I appreciate his sentiments, but not his imagery/words.
I suspect most of us relate to some poems more than others. Some writers work for us, some don't. Some works resonate, some don't.
That's how it is.
PS: Now about to examine my Abyss of Evil...and ponder on the darkness within.
I could be a while.
A very fine last line.
Poetic Outlaws,
It makes me think on«Eyes Of The Devil» from Patryk Vega, he may have been aware of these practices.
As far as I am concerned, if he wanted to inform, denounce through this poem, I do not think it is a success, but it was his way of expressing himself on the subject. It remains to be seen if this poem has marked the minds, I think not, overall (population), I would have worked on the subject, so that it shakes the mass, instead of throwing the words brutally. While we are totally free to express ourselves, it should not be forgotten that common sense and a chosen construction can be more effective if we want to get the message across. It is not the substance but the form that leaves something to be desired.
Did Layton consider himself to be a prophet? I’m only asking.
For some reason the whole conversation made me think of the well known idea that an army of sheep guided by a strong leader can be more effective than an army of wolves guided by a sheep. Maybe it’s not necessary that all followers of this page to be wolves, only the leader… 😉
Thank you for the incredible work Erik!
Thank you! 💯
It’s a shtick. Anyone who can write a grammatically correct sentence could pull it off. Poets rant and lecture us all the time. Nothing new here. Layton’s imagery is pure banality. He’s got nothing to say. It’s like a horror film by Dario Argento dripping with cheap imagery to mask the bloated egoism. Look at me, mommy!!! Grrrr!!!! I’m a tiger that mauls kittens!!!! Aren’t I special? Say it, mommy! SAY IT!! 😝
Hahaha right on brother! 💯👍
First poem that I ever read to the end
Seriously? 🙄
Damn! That was a hard start to the day. After reading it over the line that got me the most was:
"Nor do I write to give you any new emotions;" With a poem like that it is hard not to have any new emotions.
Poetry is an emotional experience, not an intellectual exercise.
There is a time for every type of poem under the sun. If you want to propogate hell, you can also read daily the headlines of any newspaper. This poem sounds to me as if he hasn't 'been there' himself (though who am I to know). But is that a problem? The content is valid, though it has been voiced before. For example:
Emily Dickinson: "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire can ever warm me, I know THAT is poetry. If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know THAT is poetry";
or
Franz Kafka: "One should only read books that bite and sting one. If the book we are reading does not wake us iup with a blow to the head, what's the point in reading? A book must be an axe which smashes the frozen sea within us".
I have written many anti-war poems though I have never been in a war myself - though both my parents in WW2, and a grandfather in WW1, had -- and their war-trauma got passed on to me -- including nightmares. Does that invalidate my anti-war poetry? (Happy to receive answers)
Indeed, this does not invalidate it, as long as we have a certain understanding of the subject. What matters, in my opinion, is a different, original approach...to address the problem, the message, the feeling etc., since the author writes to be read, even if sometimes it may happen that initially it was not intended to be published.
Most of my poetry is my way of 'journaling', and never gets published, and probably nor should it be - it's just my mode of processing - and sometimes my frustration with life - it's 'emotional throwing up'. But sometimes I think 'hey, that's confessional poetry' and then it's o.k to publish it :)
I think it’s a natural and harmonious way to do things. I suppose that is how the soul of a true poet works, without forcing yourself to write for others first, then of course we can work longer to make it more beautiful, more explicit or not...
Indeed, it is good to externalize frustrations etc., this minimizes the impacts on the body and mind, I think.
As far as I am concerned, I have, a good time ago, from a mental point of view completely all abandoned, I herited an immense freedom.
It is true, some things can, over time, be shared, they are gifts offered to the living, and can allow to reflect, to elevate souls, to soften life etc.
With respect, and because I look forward to reading each day's post (even Cioran, that humorless nihilist. Give me Beckett!), this poet's intention, to make us aware of the darkness, and so forth-- I mean what has he seen? Did he suffer the gulag, as Solzhenitsyn did? Did he wander across a scarred and grotesque battlefield, as Kosinski did? How about the shit that Celine saw? I don't know what he's seen. I know nothing about him, but he sounds, in this poem, anyway, like someone who believes he's been to the very edge, man, and is reporting back. There are so many writers who present this way. Take from each what you may, and leave the rest. Or don't bother at all.
Read him. My god, folks. You don’t have to be tortured in a Gulag to experience the darkness of the world around you.
Wow. You wouldn't want to put that guy Layton in charge of something, or give him a gun. Maybe just give him a pedestal in the town square so he could yell at the people passing by.
As a Canadian, we were raised on Irving Layton who was Cohen’s mentor in his early days in Montreal. A wonderful writer. In his spirit, I do agree. I want to be ripped open by something that I read. Knocked on my ass. By the sounds. By the metaphors. Poetry is what poetry brings. I want it to bring the fire. Poetry is what poetry does. I want to make me bleed. I want to take that blood and turn it into Ink!
Sometimes I think that poetry might actually do the impossible and if read, it could shake the world and throw a punch in its guts, but then I realise that society's ignorance is too thick (We are trapped in our habits and limited view of reality way too much. We don’t change easy) and hence, poetry is nothing more than a “masturbation” of the mind, as some would say…
Wow, that poem packed a punch, we need Irving Layton today.
he was writing in a time before this time and yet, wow, how applicable it is right now.
history repeats itself. poetry is here to remind us of the human condition, the raw and ugly and menacing parts of it, along with all the love and other good stuff. thank you, layton and erik.
history repeats itself /
because human behavior
never changes.
Don’t think we need a reminder; it’s a clever way to state the obvious.
Love it.
A manifesto of menace.
GOD DAMN!!! Irving Layton does not (did not) play! Powerful, ghastly, compelling......brilliant!
He’s doing his own thing and I love it.
For Ben Gurion, but not sadistically mutilated and mass murdered Palestinians. How unfortunate. 🇵🇸
The ultimate goal of a poem like this seems to me to make better people of us. We have no use for sentimentality and other fake feelings. We need to face the reality of the abyss in ourselves and in others. Agreed! However, are we better off incorporating horror images into poems? We can see those images passing by daily on our screens and in the daily newspapers. Has that ever improved anything about the situation?