Jack Gilbert was adamant about what makes good poetry and there is a fantastic interview with him in the book "Nineteen New American Poets of the Golden Gate." He expounds intelligently and imo brilliantly. It is obvious to me that few readers today hold the same view as his. Except for me. I totally get what he was teaching us. I did not mean to respond to @David and his loving Corso. I respect his view. I meant to respond to the post "Humanity." My apologies. To quote:
"Interesting conversation and dialogue in 60’s Genesis West magazine regarding Corso and the poetry editor at the time, Jack Gilbert, not liking Corso much and rejecting his poems profusely which led to Gordon Lish firing Gilbert and chastising him a bit for being so cruel. Gilbert despised inferior poems and considered Corso persona non grata. And so do I. I clump Corso in with Bukowski and do not understand why either of them are respected as poets. And obviously not a popular position to take."
I see you truly are a “grouchy old bore” as your profile states. Kindness would be appreciated even in disagreements. Consider other points of view other than your own or popular culture’s. “Right wing hippie” ? Hmm
Because you are a Philistine attacking great men in the name of nobodies. Truth most be told, however unpleasant it may be. Those who suffer fools wind up with more fools.
Interesting conversation and dialogue in 60’s Genesis West magazine regarding Corso and the poetry editor at the time, Jack Gilbert, not liking Corso much and rejecting his poems profusely which led to Gordon Lish firing Gilbert and chastising him a bit for being so cruel. Gilbert despised inferior poems and considered Corso persona non grata. And so do I. I clump Corso in with Bukowski and do not understand why either of them are respected as poets. And obviously not a popular position to take.
Regardless of your personal taste, Corso was one of the great beat poets. He went on to inspire some of the finest poets after him too. Patti Smith called him "the flower of the beat generation."
She once wrote:
“There was no doubt Gregory was a poet. Poetry was his ideology, and the poets his saints. He was called upon and he knew it... He has left us two legacies: a body of work that will endure for its beauty, discipline, and influential energy, and his human qualities...
Gregory reminded us how to live and cherish life before leaving us...”
I’m obviously not a lover of the “beats” but I do think Ginsberg wrote some great lines and at least one great poem. I am in the camp of Gilbert who felt they were in the business of showing their asses and he wasn’t impressed. I do acknowledge the beats importance in changing the world of literature and their influence on popular culture. Great personalities often do not make great poets. But that’s just me I guess. So we disagree and I am ok with that. ❤️
Respect your opinion, but I disagree, I am twenty-five by Corso and Bluebird by Bukowski are two of the great poems of the 20th century. I also admire other poets such as Lorca, Neruda, Baudelaire and Dickenson.
Who cares whether he was a drunk? There are worse crimes. Are we going to castigate Francis Bacon for being inebriated or so many like him. Imagine being beaten from the age of 6 years old with a leather strop, coming out in acne and nearly dying in your 30s. TBH I don't care what others think, as someone who has read more poetry than is good for me (Plath, Sexton, Oliver, Kae Tempest, Simon Armitage -- I could go on) Bukowski stands head and shoulders above them all even he was sexist, a drunk and horrible (and very loving) to women. It's his prose I so admire -- bim, bim, bim as he would say. Anyhow, enough of my opinion, who does float your boat if not Hank?
Poetic Outlaw maybe you could repost the Bokowski poem about his wife? I believe about two weeks ago it was posted.
A child is a poet if allowed that very freedom; to be, then it stays for life if society doesn't crush each one. Each poet has a voice, a feeling, a thought of an observation, an experience, their loss, understanding, suffering enmass or singular, and each is relevant or they should be, not weighed and measured. Their seams need loosened or brought in by themselves; they read, they are aware. There exists a truth and the tragic comedy yet there exists the lover's, unforgetable beauties. A diverse crowd of "I shall call them beauties." For in darkness or light usually both they shine each alive and well in each human being.
We give ourselves away speaking poorly or admiringly of any Poet. One's heart is always on one's sleeve. I must say it's admirable one does not hide. Enjoy them, all of them. They are courageous.
I could care less that he was a drunk. The obnoxious behavior I do have an issue with. Plus his treatment of women. I also love the drunken Ray Carver and a few others. I just don’t get the admiration for Bukowski. Sorry. I’m obviously from a different camp. But why can’t we at least consider another point of view? I have read and seen enough of both Corso and Bukowski to know I don’t like their work. And that’s not ok with this group? At least read the Gilbert interviews and essays before chastising my position. That’s not a lot to ask.
Had nothing to do with the work - the work stands alone, Churchill was contentious drunk fool too - this is a pretty weak view, if honest. the 'i didn't like him' approach
My weak view was in addition to not finding his verse palatable either. I have failed to see the poesy in his verse. But perhaps I have a different idea of what poetry should be?
I sometimes sit in a nearby public park with some trees older than me, and some trees that will live much longer than I will, and sometimes I talk to them and sometimes they talk back to me and I go into an altered state that doesn't feel like anything human.
How do you know he doesn't mean both? You literally have no way of knowing that. The best poetic metaphors have both a metaphorical and physical truth. Lew Welch commented on his poem "Wobbly Rock," that it was first and foremost about an actual wobbly rock. Turning everything into only symbols is what made most people's high school English classes boring, and that in turn turns a lot of people off of writing.
Your big sad lie - that about sums up the world right now.
Wow. Wallace Stevens, Emily Dickinson, Jack Gilbert to name three. Try considering a different point of view. Wow
Jack Gilbert is a better poet than Corso or Bukowski? What a square. I bet you have never even heard of Lew Welch, snicker.
Yes, Jack Gilbert is miles above Corso and Bukowski. Read his collected works and then come back with your argument.
Lol, I can know a-prori you are some form monger who doesn’t appreciate actual epiphanies, so hard pass to that and to you, adios mediocrity.
Is there a way to remove this person? Disagreement is one thing but this guy is uncivilized. Help!
Thank you so much!
Beautiful
The concise simplicity of truth
Corso's one of my faves! Thanks.
Jack Gilbert was adamant about what makes good poetry and there is a fantastic interview with him in the book "Nineteen New American Poets of the Golden Gate." He expounds intelligently and imo brilliantly. It is obvious to me that few readers today hold the same view as his. Except for me. I totally get what he was teaching us. I did not mean to respond to @David and his loving Corso. I respect his view. I meant to respond to the post "Humanity." My apologies. To quote:
"Interesting conversation and dialogue in 60’s Genesis West magazine regarding Corso and the poetry editor at the time, Jack Gilbert, not liking Corso much and rejecting his poems profusely which led to Gordon Lish firing Gilbert and chastising him a bit for being so cruel. Gilbert despised inferior poems and considered Corso persona non grata. And so do I. I clump Corso in with Bukowski and do not understand why either of them are respected as poets. And obviously not a popular position to take."
You are a tedious bore, good riddance. What have you produced that will be remembered decades from now. Another boorish nitpicker with no portfolio.
I see you truly are a “grouchy old bore” as your profile states. Kindness would be appreciated even in disagreements. Consider other points of view other than your own or popular culture’s. “Right wing hippie” ? Hmm
No, I won’t coddle nitpicking Philistines with no portfolio trying to tear down great men. Thanks for misquoting my profile text liar.
How can I block you? Wow. You know nothing about me. Why call people names?
Because you are a Philistine attacking great men in the name of nobodies. Truth most be told, however unpleasant it may be. Those who suffer fools wind up with more fools.
love Corso
Interesting conversation and dialogue in 60’s Genesis West magazine regarding Corso and the poetry editor at the time, Jack Gilbert, not liking Corso much and rejecting his poems profusely which led to Gordon Lish firing Gilbert and chastising him a bit for being so cruel. Gilbert despised inferior poems and considered Corso persona non grata. And so do I. I clump Corso in with Bukowski and do not understand why either of them are respected as poets. And obviously not a popular position to take.
Regardless of your personal taste, Corso was one of the great beat poets. He went on to inspire some of the finest poets after him too. Patti Smith called him "the flower of the beat generation."
She once wrote:
“There was no doubt Gregory was a poet. Poetry was his ideology, and the poets his saints. He was called upon and he knew it... He has left us two legacies: a body of work that will endure for its beauty, discipline, and influential energy, and his human qualities...
Gregory reminded us how to live and cherish life before leaving us...”
I’m obviously not a lover of the “beats” but I do think Ginsberg wrote some great lines and at least one great poem. I am in the camp of Gilbert who felt they were in the business of showing their asses and he wasn’t impressed. I do acknowledge the beats importance in changing the world of literature and their influence on popular culture. Great personalities often do not make great poets. But that’s just me I guess. So we disagree and I am ok with that. ❤️
Who do you consider to be a good poet, cards on the table creep!
Outlaws aren't polite.
Respect your opinion, but I disagree, I am twenty-five by Corso and Bluebird by Bukowski are two of the great poems of the 20th century. I also admire other poets such as Lorca, Neruda, Baudelaire and Dickenson.
Corso and Hank were heavyweights in my opinion.
Did not mean to respond to your love of Corso. Don't know how it happened. I respect your view. I meant to respond to the post "Humanity." Sorry.
What's the issue with Bukowski whose birthday was yesterday?
the only issue is understanding how brilliant he was and how he pushed poetry forward into more modernist verse and away from academic musings.
Perhaps. But he was also at times a contentious drunken fool whose behavior at times was unseemly. Not impressed.
Who cares whether he was a drunk? There are worse crimes. Are we going to castigate Francis Bacon for being inebriated or so many like him. Imagine being beaten from the age of 6 years old with a leather strop, coming out in acne and nearly dying in your 30s. TBH I don't care what others think, as someone who has read more poetry than is good for me (Plath, Sexton, Oliver, Kae Tempest, Simon Armitage -- I could go on) Bukowski stands head and shoulders above them all even he was sexist, a drunk and horrible (and very loving) to women. It's his prose I so admire -- bim, bim, bim as he would say. Anyhow, enough of my opinion, who does float your boat if not Hank?
Poetic Outlaw maybe you could repost the Bokowski poem about his wife? I believe about two weeks ago it was posted.
A child is a poet if allowed that very freedom; to be, then it stays for life if society doesn't crush each one. Each poet has a voice, a feeling, a thought of an observation, an experience, their loss, understanding, suffering enmass or singular, and each is relevant or they should be, not weighed and measured. Their seams need loosened or brought in by themselves; they read, they are aware. There exists a truth and the tragic comedy yet there exists the lover's, unforgetable beauties. A diverse crowd of "I shall call them beauties." For in darkness or light usually both they shine each alive and well in each human being.
We give ourselves away speaking poorly or admiringly of any Poet. One's heart is always on one's sleeve. I must say it's admirable one does not hide. Enjoy them, all of them. They are courageous.
I could care less that he was a drunk. The obnoxious behavior I do have an issue with. Plus his treatment of women. I also love the drunken Ray Carver and a few others. I just don’t get the admiration for Bukowski. Sorry. I’m obviously from a different camp. But why can’t we at least consider another point of view? I have read and seen enough of both Corso and Bukowski to know I don’t like their work. And that’s not ok with this group? At least read the Gilbert interviews and essays before chastising my position. That’s not a lot to ask.
18th century royalty called using smoke signals and mirrors, they want their “unseemly” back.
Had nothing to do with the work - the work stands alone, Churchill was contentious drunk fool too - this is a pretty weak view, if honest. the 'i didn't like him' approach
My weak view was in addition to not finding his verse palatable either. I have failed to see the poesy in his verse. But perhaps I have a different idea of what poetry should be?
Who do you consider to be a good poet Philistine? Auden perhaps, snicker.
BTW I love Francis Bacon and his work. ❤️
I sometimes sit in a nearby public park with some trees older than me, and some trees that will live much longer than I will, and sometimes I talk to them and sometimes they talk back to me and I go into an altered state that doesn't feel like anything human.
That really got to me, I’ve never thought of it that way, but it’s sadly true!
It’s all kinds of pollution physical and spiritual.
How can you know that for sure? LOL!
How do you know he doesn't mean both? You literally have no way of knowing that. The best poetic metaphors have both a metaphorical and physical truth. Lew Welch commented on his poem "Wobbly Rock," that it was first and foremost about an actual wobbly rock. Turning everything into only symbols is what made most people's high school English classes boring, and that in turn turns a lot of people off of writing.